In January 2005 I wrote a letter to my cousins on my maternal side. Below you will find the bones of what I said.
At the time of writing we knew very little about the generations that had gone before. Now, in September 2006, I have seen a family tree that seems to confirm a link from Charles Crosland Hay, through the Hays of Hopes, to the Tweeddale line of Hays.
We have also now made the connection to Cheltenham, as in the 1851 census we find our great-great grandparents living in some comfort in Brandon house, Leckhampton.

I thought you might like to see what I have found out by spending a few hours on the Internet. I should add a caveat that this is not 100% verifiable, just what others have placed on genealogy sites such as the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) who have a huge data base because of an interest, I understand, they have in posthumously saving souls.

I can remember, as a little boy, that Grandma always claimed to be Scottish, taking her Father's nationality. He, it turns out, was born in France but a British citizen as a result of having two Scottish parents.

So let us start with our grandmother, her sisters and our great-grandfather.

                                             Edward Adolphe Massy Hay

                                             B: 24th February 1845 Tours, France.
                                      Baptised: Lasswade, Midlothian 13th May 1845
                                                      D: January 1909, Kandy.

He had four daughters:

                                      Jessie         Ethel       Mary Helena      Kitty

The birth information for Edward is from the copy of the certificate that I have and the Christening and death dates are on the (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

Our grandmother was the third daughter called
Mary Helena and known as Nell.
(She would go on to marry Richard "Bobby" Burke, who died aged 33; then my grandfather, Henry Walter Renaux and, on his death, she married Frank Willman Brewer.)

Great-grandfather Edward's mother was a 'Wemyss' from Fife, his Father a 'Hay' from Midlothian.
Here, then, are Edward's parents:

          Jeannette Whitelaw Wemyss   Married 19/7/1832   Charles Crosland Hay
             B:26th June 1807 Aberdour, Fife                                            B:21st May 1797 Dunbar
                             D: 1851                                                                      D:29th July 1858

What is interesting about these two is that by entering their name into the Google search engine and doing a search I discovered a website that lists memorial inscriptions originally compiled in 1876 not in Scotland but in England! The place is Christ Church, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire England.

I wonder how many Charles Crosland Hay married to a Janette Hay there can possibly be? The dates match the death date for our Charles Hay “July 29,1858” and is “May 5, 1851” for “Janette”.

This brings me to spelling. Crosland is spelt with two 's' on one site and with one 's' on another. Jeannette is also spelt Janette and Janet depending where one looks.

Going up Edward Hay's mother's side we find our great-great-great grandparents are the Wemyss:

            William Whitelaw Wemyss           Married 1790            Elenora Jeanette
             of Cuttlehill and Whitelaw.                               Dalrymple-Horn-Elphinstone

                     B:1764 D:1809                                                              B:1768 D: ?

Their daughter being:

                                                  Jeannette Whitelaw Wemyss
                                                      B:26th June 1807 Aberdour, Fife
                                                        D:1851 Cheltenham, England.

Great-great-great grandmother Elenora Jeanette Dalrymple-Horn-Elphinstone was the 5th daughter of eight children, (six sisters and two brothers one of whom became the 1st Baronet [ Sir Robert Dalrymple-Horn-Elphinstone 1766-1848]. Various of her sisters married Baronets and other landed families.

Her father was
Lieutenant General Robert Dalrymple-Horn-Elphinstone of Horn and Westhall and Logie Elphinstone. He was the 2nd son of Hew Dalrymple of Drummore (B:30th Nov.1690 D:18th June1755) Hew became a ' Lord of Session ' as Lord Drummore.(Lords of Session are judges of the Scottish Court of Session. He was Captain of the Honourable company of Edinburgh Golfers in 1752, this being the oldest golf club in the world “founded by a group of gentlemen in 1744”.

Lt Gen. Robert Dalrymple-Horn-Elphinstone (Great-great-great-great grandfather) was, in 1762 a Battalion commander of the Royal Scots and I have found him mentioned as Colonel of various regiments one being the 53rd Regiment and so I may do some more research on him at a later date.

His father's surname was simply Dalrymple (although he became Lord Drummore as a judge) but Robert adds 'Horn' from his mother,
Anne Horn daughter of John Horn of Horn and Westhall and becomes a triple-barrelled surname adding Elphinstone from his wife on the death of her father.

Lt General Robert Dalrymple-Horn-Elphinstone married in 1754 Mary Elphinstone.
                            (B:1/3/1718 D:20/4/1794)                                                  (B:28/4/1737 D: 1774)

Great-great-great-great grandmother
Mary was the daughter of

                Sir James Elphinstone 3rd Baronet of Logie
and Jean Rattray
                    (B:1710 D:April 1739)                                                   (B:1711 D:April 1739)

He only lived for 29 years and had already succeeded his Father to the baronetcy before he died. On his death the Baronetcy passed down to his daughter
Mary and her husband added her surname to his.

Jean Rattray was the second daughter of Rt. Revd. Thomas Rattray, 20th Laird Craighall-Rattray. Doctor of Divinity, and Primus of Scotland.

Primus means he was the presiding bishop of the Scottish Episcopal Church, the church in Scotland closest to Anglican and governed by bishops (not the Church of Scotland, which is Presbyterian). He could not have gone much higher in his church.


So what about the Hays?

They are part of a noble clan that have several branches, including peers of the realm, who still own castles and houses in Scotland to this day. They are descended from France and a Norman whose name was De la Haye or sometimes written as de Haya. This information was on the Hay Clan website:

Our Great grandfather
Edward Adolphe Massy Hay is the son of Charles Crosland Hay whose baptism was in the parish of Dunbar, East Lothian.

He is the son of
Charles Hay and Mary Ann Stag and this Charles was christened at a church in the very small village of Garvald in 1766. This is but a stone's throw from the Yester estate at Gifford.

Garvald is also the place of baptism for his father:
John Hay, the 4th Laird of Hopes in 1731or 2 ;

and of his father...
Charles Edmond Hay, the 3rd Laird of Hopes, 1704 ;

John Hay, the 2nd Laird of Hopes was baptised at Yester in 1658 and his father was:

Edmond Hay, the 1st Laird of Hopes born sometime between 1631-1636.
But who were his parents?

Well Yester is the ancestral seat of the Lords Hay of Yester. Edmond 1st Laird of Hopes has the 2nd Laird baptised there, along with at least one other son called Edmond b:13 Nov 1666
So, could it be that he is the natural born son of the Lord of Yester, or did he simply adopt the Hay name for some reason or other?

John Hay,
1st Earl of Tweeddale, Earl of Gifford, Viscount Walden and Lord Hay of Yester.
b: 1595 d: 1653

All the best,


Visit to Scotland 2006.   In August 2006 I visited Scotland and more was revealed.

Hay Update.    

Hay Questions 

Nicholas Thorne's Family History Pages.
Home page Thorne Family Stephens, Colwill & Westlake familys Hay, Wemyss, Dalrymple-Horn-Elphinstone & Rattray familes.

Click to enlarge: Mary Helena Hay.

Grandma, Mary Helena Hay

Click to enlarge: Grandma Renaux nee Hay.

Grandma Renaux neé Hay

Click to enlarge: Grandma and Step-Grandpa Brewer in the Rover 75.

Grandma and Step-Grandpa Brewer in the Rover 75

Click to enlarge: Hay, Wemyss Family Tree.

Hay, Wemyss Family Tree

Visit to Scotland 2006