Nicholas Thorne's Family History Pages. days in Scotland-Introduction.html

More Questions!

What is the connection between an MP called Charles Frewen Hay and my ancestor Charles Crosland Hay?

Answer: Northiam.

By November 1837 the Hay's were in Northiam, Sussex. this is just on the border with Kent about 10 miles from Rye. John Crosland Hay, their fourth child was born there on the 23rd November 1837.

I did a Google search for Charles Hay and Northiam to see if it brought up anything interesting. Nothing for my ancestor came up. What it did do was find a Charles Hay Frewen who was born in 1813 and died in 1878, was the Member of Parliament for Eastern Sussex from 1846-1857 before standing unsuccessfully for North Leicestershire. His brother was a Thomas Frewen Turner, but the family seems to have dropped the Turner name after 1837. So what has this got to do with my ancestors?

The year before the Hays were in Northiam for the birth of John, they had had William Wemyss Frewen Hay in Leamington Priors. We may assume that he was named after Jeanette's father, William Whitelaw Wemyss, but why Frewen?

Thomas Frewen (Turner) was the owner of Brickwall House in Northiam and on an unsubstantiated list I have previously seen, the birth place of the Hay's next child, John Crosland Hay is given as Brickwall House. Now this gives rise to one of those infernal questions that one keeps finding in family research. Is this a co-incidence or not? Is his place of birth in the house of Thomas Frewen correct? What we do know was that on the 1851 census the place of birth for John is Northian. What, if any connection exists with the Hay family and why is Charles Hay Frewen so named?

By looking at a records web site for East Sussex I have found that the Frewen family have donated to the archives some letters from Charles Hay of Hopes, written in 1763. The correspondence is to David Hay concerning the commission and other affairs of George Hay. This George is the son of Charles the 3rd Laird of Hopes. Fifty years later Charles Hay Frewen is born and seventy three years later my ancestor, Charles Crosland Hay the great grand son of the writer of these letters is possibly staying with the Frewen Family, or was it just his wife Jeanette while waiting to give birth?

I found a link to the East Sussex Record office which has given me some sort of answer. The Frewen family were related by marriage to the Hays. Thomas [IV]Frewen had married Eleanor Clark, the daughter of Charles Clark and Elizabeth Hay.

Elizabeth was the daughter of David Hay and Susannah Wanchope. Her father, Captain David Hay, was the son of John Hay the second laird of Hopes. His elder brother was Charles, the third laird of Hopes who was Charles Crosland Hay's great-great grandfather.

Here is an extract.

"The letters relate principally to the conduct of David's nephew George, his purchase of a company in the 56th Regiment whilst stationed at Havana in 1762 and his subsequent financial difficulties."

Captain David Hay, RN (1714-1788), the son of John Hay of Hopes (who was the illegitimate son of John Hope, Marquess of Tweeddale, and Catherine, the daughter of Lord Seton), was born on 18 July 1714. He had two brothers, James who died at Dunkirk in February 1759 and Charles of Hopes, Hopes Water, near Haddington, South Lothian who had two sons George and John. David's sister Susanna married Archibald Tod of Hayfield and their son was Thomas Tod. David Hay served in the Royal Navy and was granted the freedom of Aberdeen in 1756. He married Susannah Wanchope; he died at Chichester on 18 March 1788 and was buried at St Martin Chichester on 21 March (FRE/6881). His wife died at Paris in February 1821 and was buried at Pére Lachaise cemetery. They had two children: George was born c1765 and was buried at Chichester in September 1784, and Elizabeth (born 17 September 1728, baptised 29 September at St Margaret Westminster and died on 15 March 1806) who married Charles Clark of London. Their daughter, Eleanor Clark, married Thomas [IV] Frewen (1811-1870).

Note: there is an error in the above in that John Hay, 1st Marquess of Tweeddale was not the father of John Hay of Hopes as research seems to say that John was the name of the 2nd Laird of Hopes.

John Hay of Hopes went on to be Factor to the Marquess and I believe that the Marquess' father, John Hay, Earl of Tweeddale, had allegedly fathered Edmond Hay, 1st Laird of Hopes. Edmond's son was John Hay, 2nd Laird of Hopes and if this is true then the Marquess and the Laird of Hopes were cousins.